FULL TRANSCRIPT of Bible Study - 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-5 (Part 1)

 

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Shaun SFGH Church Leader
Recorded on the Day

Outline

00:00:00 – Blogging and Record-Keeping

00:01:10 – Study Focus

00:01:30 – Recap of Last Week

00:02:30 – Apostasia, and the Man of Lawlessness

00:04:15 – Identifying the Man of Lawlessness

00:05:20 – Lawlessness and Antichrist Terminology

00:06:10 – Pastoral Reassurances

00:07:20 – Antichrist’s Self-Exaltation

00:08:20 – Temple of God 

00:11:10 – Temple Discussions

00:13:20 – Temple, Timing and Feasibility

00:15:20 – Modern Construction Speeds

00:17:00 – Preparations by Jewish Groups

00:18:30 – Tabernacle vs Permanent Temple

00:21:15 – Don't Limit Possibilities

00:22:30 – Corroborating Scriptures 

00:26:30 – Moving to Matthew 24:15–22

00:29:50 – Antichrist Appears Before the Rapture

00:35:30 – Tribulation isn't God’s Wrath

00:40:00 – Worldwide Scope of Tribulation

00:45:00 – Possibility of an Islamic Antichrist

00:50:00 – Tradition vs Scripture

00:53:00 – Homework and Study Plan

00:55:00 – 36 Scriptures Across the Timeline

00:58:00 – Closing Prayer by Dave

00:59:00 – Post-Prayer Reflections

Main Transcript

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:00:00:

We now take a transcript of these meetings, so we’ve a reference point for anyone to revisit in future.

Marinus – 00:00:10:

For the blog?

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:00:12:

For the blog, yes.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:00:14:

“Blog” sounds an awful word.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:00:17:

It does, doesn’t it? Sounds like something a plumber would use. But if we want to reach the younger generation, that’s the word we need to use. The main thing, Marinus, is that we don’t lose anything that Brian, I, or anyone else says; it’ll be there for future reference, which is always good. Right, we’ve a lot to plough through tonight, so if I don’t get to the end, I’ll find a suitable stopping point and pick up next time.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:01:10:

I don’t think I’ll get to the end of what I’ve written, but one can hope. Tonight we’re going to delve into 2 Thessalonians 2:3b–5.

Denise wasn’t here last week, nor Marinus—but we delved into some of Paul’s teaching and the errors being introduced into the church, and how those errors were entering the Thessalonian church. At the very end, we probably had the most interesting discussion of the evening because Brian asked a question, meant as a quick one-liner, and it led to a 30-minute discussion.

 

Which I thought was really good. Because we touched on what we’re going to talk about tonight. Some of the things I’ll mention I won’t go into great depth, because we discussed them last week, but for the benefit of Marinus and Denise I’ll briefly recap before we look at tonight’s focus.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:02:42:

Tonight, I’d like to consider when the Antichrist will come, because Paul mentions his coming (2 Thessalonians 2:3–5). If I get through it, great. Next week we’ll look more at who the Antichrist is and what to expect when he comes. I suspect we won’t get through everything I’ve prepared tonight, but we’ll see how it goes.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:03:20:

Let’s begin. Brian would you like to read 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-5

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:04:00:

Brian reads reads 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-5

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:04:10:

Thank you. That’s what we’ll be looking at tonight. We mentioned most of that at the back end of last week. As a summary for those who weren’t there: it starts with “for that day will not come,” and we discussed last week that “that day” means the rapture of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1–3).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:04:30:

In verse 1 it says “being gathered together.” “Unless a rebellion comes first.” We considered “rebellion” briefly last week and said it was a falling away from the church—I believe we said that, Brian, didn’t we? I looked it up in the Greek: apostasia—defiance against established authority, abandonment, or breach of faith. So there’s going to be a falling away.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:05:00:

We noted the all-important “and,” because it comes in pairs. For the end to happen, Paul told the church—not only must there be a falling away from authority, an abandonment or breach of faith (and I think all three are happening today), but the man of lawlessness needs to be revealed. Until that man of lawlessness is revealed, we’re not in end times. We may be close, but we’ll certainly know end times are here when the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:05:50:

What we didn’t say last week, though we implied it, is that “the man of lawlessness” is apocalyptic Jewish language for the Antichrist. There are many apocalyptic terms for the Antichrist, and we’ll look at some tonight. 

Cecilia – 00:06:20:

I was going to say, it reads, “Don’t be fooled by what they say, for that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the Antichrist is revealed…”

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:06:35:

Does yours say “Antichrist”?

Cecilia – 00:06:40:

No, it doesn’t; it just says “lawlessness,” but I wanted to put it in your words.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:06:50:

Yes—Antichrist. So the Antichrist will come. Paul’s basically saying, “We’re not going to be raptured, we’re not going to be gathered together,” so the Thessalonians are panicking needlessly, because we haven’t had a rebellion; there hasn’t been a falling away from the established churches yet. If anything, in Paul’s time the established church was growing, not shrinking. And the man of lawlessness hasn’t been revealed, so we can’t be in the end times—so don’t panic.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:07:50:

Paul adds that when the Antichrist is revealed he will place himself above every so-called god. That’s every god, including our God, Yahweh—whether Allah, Buddha, Krishna—he will place himself above every type of god and every object of worship.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:08:40:

He will take his seat in the temple of God. We didn’t touch on two things last week, so I’ll mention them briefly. In that last sentence—above every god and every object of worship and taking a seat in the temple of God, and proclaiming himself to be God: the Antichrist is equating himself with God (our Christian God).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:09:00:

We know Jesus Christ is God, and the Antichrist is anti-Jesus and will negatively mimic what Jesus does. When he comes, he’s basically saying, “I am God.” If you look in your Bibles—mine is ESV, and I’m sure NIV and NKJV will say the same—when “God” is mentioned the Antichrist equates himself with God, with a capital “G.”

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:09:50:

Not a small “g” when talking about so-called gods like Buddha or Krishna. When he equates himself with God, there’s no misapprehension: he’s equating himself with our God—the Father, Jesus, Yahweh—because it’s a capital “G.” In Greek, theos is “god” whether small g or capital G; the difference is if you have ho (the definite article) in front of theos, it becomes “the God.” So in Greek, when referring to Yahweh—our God—it says ho theos, as opposed to just theos. When the Antichrist comes he will declare himself equal to “the God,” our God, Yahweh (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:11:10:

We also discussed last week where the temple will be. Currently there isn’t a temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem; it was levelled by the Romans in AD 70, and the Dome of the Rock stands there now.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:11:50:

We asked whether that could be metaphorical—could the Antichrist come into the Dome of the Rock, say, “I’m Muslim,” and treat it as the temple of God? Last week I said I didn’t think so. Looking again, it says “the temple of God,” with a capital G. So when Paul says he will appear in the temple of God and declare himself God—with capital G—it can only mean a temple that the Jews or God would recognise as a genuine Judeo-Chriatian temple: God’s temple, not a “fake” temple like the Dome of the Rock.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:13:10:

So you’re saying that when he comes he will stand in a Jewish temple?

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:13:30:

Yes. Not that it has to be necessarily fully rebuilt to a Herodian-scale. When the second temple was rebuilt in Nehemiah’s time after Babylon, Daniel prophecies it was rebuilt in 49 years. That doesn’t mean all the embellishments were present, but the temple was reconstructed in 49 years.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:14:20:

We’re now in 2025, and have modern building technology—Joehana (my wife) commented at the other day: they’d the new factory buildings on the way to work from soil, to foundations, to construction, and finally roofs, glass, electrics, and a “to let” sign going up took a mere eight weeks to construct from start to finish.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:15:00:

Yes, but it’s a different style of building tomthe temple. I don’t think the Jewish temple would be built so quickly.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:15:20:

It is different, but there’s nothing to stop it happening as fast. Just because a temple is built doesn’t mean that’s the sign the actual seven-year tribulation has begun. You’re assuming building starts at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period and the Antichrist appears mid-tribulation—which I’m going to propose he does—that it’s built in three and a half years.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:16:20:

I think it’s feasible with modern technology that that could happen easily. Second: there’s nothing to suggest the temple couldn’t be built long before the seven-year tribulation period begins. We’re assuming tribulation might be in our lifetime because of what we see around us; we don’t know when it will happen. So the temple could be erected in 50 years’ time, and tribulation might not start until 75 years’ time. God knows what he’s doing; if he says it will be done, it will be done, and quickly.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:17:00:

There’s already a Jewish society preparing for the temple—I forget the name, but I’ve written about it. They’re training priests for animal sacrifice right now. They’ve got the menorah and all the tools—everything’s ready to go right now. The only thing they haven’t got is the temple, and they are prefabricating as we speak. When the Jews get the Temple Mount back, believe me, the plans, schematics, and materials—like David left for Solomon—are in place. I think it will happen quickly.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:18:30:

Also, who says it has to be the final brick-and-mortar version of a temple? It could be a tabernacle, a tent—that would still be classed as a holy place. Jesus mentions the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Matthew 24:15). He doesn’t say “temple”—although Paul does. There’s nothing to suggest it couldn’t initially be a cloth tabernacle, manufactured in a week.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:19:50:

If you wait for a temple like Herod’s temple to be built, with all the embellishments of the second temple—from Nehemiah’s time to Herod’s took about 400 years to construct—but the temple was still the temple in 49 years after Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem. It depends what you class as “temple” and when it’s built—there’s nothing to say it can’t be built before the tribulation begins. Many possibilities exist.

Dave Proctor – 00:21:15:

Don’t limit it Brian. With today’s technology, they can build a building quickly. Eight hotels in Blackpool over the last few years have been constructed—the speed of putting them up is unbelievable.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:21:50:

Yes, I think it could be built quickly. It might not be the size of Herod’s temple, but it doesn’t need to be—nevertheless, it will still be a temple. It could even be a tabernacle, but I think it probably will be a stone or wood structure. The slowest thing in building today is planning permission and approval—I don’t think that will be a problem for God. When it comes, and it will come; God will make it possible to be constructed quickly.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:22:30:

So I think the Antichrist will appear in the proper temple of God—not the Dome of the Rock. The wording is “in the temple of God,” with a capital G. If it were the Dome of the Rock it would be “the temple of a so-called god,” with a small g. From that we can infer it probably will be a properly constructed temple. When we get to the Olivet Discourse, I think we can say it will be a permanent temple from what Jesus says, but we’ll get to that shortly. Jesus references this passage in the Olivet Discourse.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:23:40:

That’s a quick summary of last week. It was a really good conversation, a completely unplanned discussion, but we covered a lot of ground.

Cecilia – 00:23:55:

Yes, love, we did. We covered a lot of ground.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:24:05:

It was good—really good. I enjoyed it; I hope everyone else did. Right, so that’s roughly what we discussed last week, and we’re going to expand upon that this week. Now, the main point is, Paul states 5 key things here. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:24:30:

So, just for clarity: “For that day will not come”—the rapture—“unless a rebellion comes first.” That’s starting to happen now. “And the man of lawlessness is revealed”—that hasn’t happened yet—“the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God”—that’s not happened yet either—“proclaiming himself to be God.” “Don’t you remember I told you all this before?” is what Paul outlines in 2 Thessalonians 2:3b–5.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:25:30:

But are there other scriptures to support what Paul says? That’s key. And the answer is yes. There are three places in scripture that underpin what Paul says: the Olivet Discourse (found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke), Revelation (particularly Revelation 20), and Daniel. None are easy to grasp—apart from, I think, the Olivet Discourse, which is simplest of the three.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:26:30:

So I’ll go to Matthew first— in particular “Matthew 24. Then Revelation or Daniel, depending on time. I’ll probably not get to either tonight; but if not we’ll go there next week.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:27:10:

If you want to turn to Matthew 24, we’ll. I’ll not reading the full discourse, because Matthew gives us the longest account. So, I’ll not include the lead-up to the tribulation period, such as wars and rumours of wars, but start at verse 15: “The Abomination of Desolation.”

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:28:10:

In essence, Jesus tales us straight into what Paul’s is talking about in 2 Thessalonians: the coming of the Antichrist. I’ll read from verses 15 to 22: “So, when you see the abomination of desolation (i.e., the Antichrist), spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what’s in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas, for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short” (Matthew 24:15–22).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:29:50:

We’ve considered this passage before when we looked at 1 Thessalonians. If you read what Jesus says from verse 1 to the end of the chapter, he gives a chronological account: the lead-up to end times; the beginning of end times before the man of lawlessness stands in the holy place; then he tells those in Judea to flee—get away. That’s basically anyone in Jerusalem at that moment—flee.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:31:20:

As they’re running away, he says there will be great tribulation, such as we’ve never seen. I think the worst tribulation mankind’s seen to date is the Second World War and probably the Holocaust—with millions of lives lost. If the tribulation to come is like nothing we’ve ever seen before—Revelation tells us we’re talking of vast numbers of deaths. So, we’ve never seen anything like what’s coming in this great tribulation period.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:32:30:

Then Jesus says if God hadn’t cut that time short, no human would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short (Matthew 24:22).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:33:20:

Jesus, then tells us more about the coming of the Son of Man and what to look for at that time in more detail, starting at verse 29 to 31—Jesus coming in the clouds, the trumpet call, the gathering of the elect. I would suggest that this sequence dictates when the Antichrist will come, which is before the rapture. What are your comments?

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:34:20:

Going back to that interpretation of Thessalonians, this enemy is not going to be far away.

He will be revealed first, because he will be the one who effectively causes the tribulation to take place.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:34:55:

I think the key point is that tribulation is not God’s wrath. That’s where people get confused.

When the tribulation period starts, we might not know exactly when it begins. We won’t have a countdown clock at the beginning. But it starts at some unknown point. We’ll only know for definitely that we’re there when the Antichrist stands in the temple and declares himself God. That’s the only way we’ll realistically know for sure—other than Revelation telling us there will be war leading up to that time (which is tribulation, but not God’s wrath). That’s Satan causing death, destruction, and desolation not God because that’s what Satan does.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:36:15:

At the midpoint of the final seven years you get what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians the revealing of the man of lawlessness standing in the temple. Jesus mentions it too. When you look at the Book of Revelation, you see the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse—war, pestilence, death. Wich brings tribulation. Finally you get the Great Tribulation, which Jesus mentions in verse 21 (Matthew 24:21).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:37:20:

John tells us in Revelation that Great Tribulation includes heavier persecution of the church and the saints (Revelation 13:5–7). Then Jesus tells us that God calls “time out,” lest no one be saved, and for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short (Matthew 24:22).

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:38:00:

So from the timing Paul gives and Jesus details in Matthew, Mark, and Luke—slightly different wording, same chronology—the church we will see tribulation. The common view is that before the Antichrist comes the Church will be raptured (before the seven years tribulation period begins), meaning we never see the Antichrist. But that’s not what Jesus or Paul tells us. Paul tells the Thessalonians you’ll know those days are here, because the Antichrist—the man of destruction—will stand in the temple (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4). Jesus says the same (Matthew 24:15). If the church is raptured at the beginning as tradition dictates, how can we see the Antichrist? We won’t. So either traditional teaching is wrong, or Jesus and Paul are wrong. Both can’t be correct.

Cecilia – 00:39:30:

I’ve go with the Bible.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:39:40:

Do you see where I’m coming from with this? Does what I’ saying make sense?

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:40:00:

It’s making sense, though I still can’t get the full picture. Let’s consider it worldwide. If this man of lawlessness exalts himself in the temple in Jerusalem, how will that affect people in America? There will be Christians in America—will they likewise suffer great tribulation? I believe so. Even though this happens far from America, technology connects these things. Extremism seems to be rising here, taking hold in America, and is established in many Arab nations. The existing extremism points towards uniting to persecute the church across the whole world, not just in Jerusalem or here.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:41:30:

We tend to think locally—about the United Kingdom—and we see things happening here. But the Lord is saying this will be worldwide. It won’t only be about the man who reveals himself in the temple in Jerusalem. Whatever happens, the tribulation will be worldwide. It will not be restricted to us, Europe, Asia, or anywhere else. It is going to be worldwide.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:42:20:

The problem with understanding 2 Thessalonians 2 is that it’s only a couple of sentences, and to grasp it we have to look at the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24–25; Mark 13; Luke 21), which we’ve are doing. Then go to Daniel, and at finally Revelation. The full arc of Scripture says there will be worldwide conflict. So, although the Antichrist stands in the temple of God in Jerusalem, that’s just where he declares himself God. His reach will include great tribulation across the whole world.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:43:20:

I see that. It’s got to be linked to the man of lawlessness.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:43:30:

It is.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:43:40:

Whatever is revealed in the temple in Jerusalem somehow brings together the extremisms opposing the Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel could only see his own region. We’re in a position now to see Christians in America, which is a world away from Jerusalem, and this tribulation is for the elect—for their sake. The elect are all over the world, so the persecution will be worldwide.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:44:50:

There will be a religious element to it. Whatever it is, the man of lawlessness is going to unite persecution against the Christian church.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:45:00:

Personally—I’ll mention it in other weeks—I think there’s a strong possibility that the Antichrist might be Islamic.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:45:20:

Which is certainly a possibility because—

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:45:30:

I’ll clarify that in other weeks.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:45:40:

Islam is the other great religion which, in many places, is opposed to Christianity. Where Christians and Muslims live together, there tends to be persecution. Somehow that is going to be united together. I’m using America as an example because it’s nowhere near Jerusalem.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:46:20:

It doesn’t have to be.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:46:25:

Correct. It doesn’t have to be.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:46:30:

Britain was thousands of miles from Japan, but we were still in the same war in 1945.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:46:40:

You can see how a war can break out quite easily. It’s the persecution of the elect elsewhere. This tribulation is going to affect Christians not just in the UK, but in China, America—what we would call civilised Christian countries. Somehow these will be turned on their head in how they see Christians, and it will be united against Christians in these other countries. At this point, that’s something I can’t get my head around. But for the elect’s sake—the elect exist in America, South America, Antarctica, wherever—for the elect’s sake, the persecution will affect everyone who is a Christian. So this is an anti-Christian movement that will be picked up in all these countries and united, because Satan will manufacture it.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:48:00:

I can’t see that being a problem. I think that will happen.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:48:10:

But it’s not—at this point, it’s not—

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:48:15:

Oh, we’re not there yet.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:48:20:

No, we’re not there yet. There is a movement towards extremism. At this point, if it were Islam, I cannot see America accepting Islam.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:48:40:

Well, that’s why—

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:48:45:

Although it seems to me that Britain already has a strong Muslim population.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:49:00:

Islam is growing faster than Christianity, and it’s growing faster in America than any other country. That’s a statistical fact. I’ve had many remarkable conversations over the several years with a senior Imam from a Bradford Mosque. He worked in the same place as me. And during the lunch break we’d often talk. I won’t name him— but we debated end times. Anyway, you’ll find that there is a lot of shared theology between Islam and Christianity, and a lot that’s completely different to what we accept as truth, although there’s certainly some overlap. I found what he said about Islam fascinating but extremely unsettling. In essence, their black is our white; their ying is our yang. Our positive is their negative—opposites. Everything that happens in Revelation—which I’ve read in detail—I questioned him about. And he gave me answers from a Muslim perspective. His perspective fit Christian Scripture like a glove: what we call the Antichrist, they call Messiah; what we call our Messiah, they call the devil, and vice versa. It was amazing how they overlapped.

Cecilia – 00:50:40:

They’ve tried to abolish Christianity before. Look when Jesus was born—that went worldwide, didn’t it? Yes, yes. So it’s going to go worldwide in the same way.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:50:50:

Of course it will.

Cecilia – 00:50:55:

But we fought it then, if you don’t mind me saying it that way, and we’ll fight it again, because God will be right.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:51:00:

We will.

Cecilia – 00:51:05:

God will come through.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:51:10:

We will, but remember, we’ll be raptured out of this world. That’s how it will go. We will reach a point where persecutio gets so severe that we will be raptured. Anyway, the main thrust of tonight was to suggest that the common tradition of the church is that we’ll be raptured before the seven-year tribulation period begins. But, as we’ve seen from Paul, we will see the Antichrist, and the Antichrist doesn’t come until midway through the Tribulation period. So the traditional teaching of the church must be incorrect, because both Paul and Jesus say the same thing, and one view has to be wrong. I’m trying to show where church tradition differs from Scripture. And we have to back up what we say with Scripture—Daniel, in particular, which Brian mentioned tonight, and Revelation, everything Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse underpins what Paul said in exactly the same sequence as 2 Thessalonians 2. 

I’m  conscious of time so, I’ll call it quits for now and pick up next week from where I’ve left off.But before we go I have some homework for you.

Cecilia – 00:53:05:

I don’t expect we’ l wrap your head around this.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:53:10:

This is something to think about. But the point I’m making is that traditional church teaching is at loggerheads with Jesus and Paul.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:53:40:

I think you’re probably right. What is traditional church teaching? Whichever way, we should expect to pass through more trouble than we previously expected.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:54:00:

Yes. If you wrap your head around this fact as well as the fact that tribulation is not God’s wrath.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:54:10:

Agreed—we know that. It’s still hard regardless of whether it’s God’s wrath or tribulation. If it affects me, I’ve got to prove myself faithful to him.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:54:20:

I’ll say what I said last week. I’ve had this discussion with other Christians before, and I can’t budge them. I think tradition is wrong. However, my final words to them were: when we’re raptured, if you’re right and I’m wrong, I’ll be the happiest man in the world, because it means I don’t have to go through any flipping tribulation—and that would be wonderful.

Cecilia – 00:55:00:

You’ve put some work into this, Shaun. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:55:10:

Thank you but I haven’t truly done this Scripture justice tonight, but we’ve looked at it briefly. Next week we’ll pick up with Daniel, and if we can, we’ll go onto Revelation; if not, the week after. If we look at the Olivet Discourse, Daniel, and Revelation, we can fully understand what Paul is saying in these two sentences within the context of all Scripture that mentions the Anti-Christ in end times. 

We need to spend some time in Daniel, although it can be confusing.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder – 00:57:50:

You’re not wrong there.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader – 00:57:55:

Dave would you like to end in prayer

Dave Proctor – 00:58:00:

Father, we thank you once again for bringing us together. We thank you for your word. Help us to know who you are. Father, we ask that you would take us to our homes in safety. We thank you and ask again for your blessings. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

Key moments:

- The session focused on 2 Thessalonians 2:3b–5, beginning with an opening discussion on the use of a blog for transcripts to ensure nothing said is lost and for future reference, especially for younger generations. The speaker also noted a discussion on various Bible versions, including the New Living Translation and Good News Bible, and their simplicity.

- A detailed exploration defined “that day” as the rapture, “apostasia” as a falling away from the church, meaning defiance against established systems of authority, abandonment, or breach of faith, and identified the “man of lawlessness” as the Antichrist.

- Extended discussion on whether the Antichrist’s standing in the temple refers to a literal Jewish temple, considering its feasibility, modern construction speed, prefabrication possibilities by Jewish groups (who are already retraining priests for sacrifice and have tools like the menorah ready), and the possibility of a tabernacle (a tent) fulfilling the "holy place" requirement. The speaker concluded it must be a Jewish temple due to the "capital G" in "Temple of God."

- Transition to Matthew 24:15–22 to establish a chronology: the abomination of desolation (the Antichrist) standing in the holy place, followed by a call for flight from Judea, an unprecedented period of great tribulation (compared to the Second World War and Holocaust, potentially involving billions of deaths as per Revelation), and the shortening of those days for the sake of the elect.

Themes:

- Distinguishing tribulation (Satanic persecution and chaos, including the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which precedes the Antichrist declaring himself God) from God’s wrath, emphasizing that tribulation is not God's wrath.

- Challenging traditional church teaching regarding the timing of the rapture (pre-tribulation) by aligning Jesus’ and Paul’s sequences, which suggest the church will witness the Antichrist and tribulation.

- The global scope of end-times persecution, which will affect Christians worldwide, not just locally, and potential religious dynamics, including a discussion of Islamic eschatology parallels, where their Messiah is seen as the Christian Antichrist and vice versa, based on conversations with a senior imam.

Memorable quotes:

- “Tribulation is not God’s wrath. That’s where people get confused.”

 - "Traditional church teaching is at odds with scripture. Either tradition is wrong, or Jesus and Paul are wrong. We agreed tradition was wrong."

- “When the Antichrist comes he will declare himself equal to ‘the God,’ our God, Yahweh.”

Scripture focus:

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1–5; Matthew 24:15–22, 29–31; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 13:5–7.

Special highlights:

- A Greek note on ho theos (the definite article before "God") supporting the “capital G” distinction for Yahweh, as opposed to "theos" for other gods.

- Practical considerations for the temple's rebuilding: modern construction speed, the speaker's proposal that the Antichrist appears mid-tribulation, and existing preparations by Jewish groups, including retraining priests for sacrifice and having all necessary tools. The speaker also noted that planning permission, usually a bottleneck, would not be an issue for God.

- Reference to a chart compiling 36 scriptures from Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John, mapped to a seven-year tribulation timeline. This chart illustrates how these scriptures cohere perfectly with the abomination of desolation occurring at the midpoint and the church being present to witness it, contrasting with traditional views that struggle to align all 36 scriptures.

- A personal reflection by the speaker on how, as a new Christian, he found traditional views on the rapture did not fit with scripture, leading him to re-evaluate and find coherence in an alternative interpretation.

- A discussion with a senior imam from the Bradford Mosque revealed a fascinating and unsettling overlap in end-times theology, where what Christians call the Antichrist, Muslims call their Messiah, and vice versa.

Transcription recorderd by Shaun Fereday, Prison Chaplain (Sessional) and Leader @SFGH Church