FULL TRANSCRIPT of Bible Study - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3a

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Shaun SFGH Church Leader
Recorded on the Day

Outline

0:00:28  Intro and Housekeeping

0:01:34  Rapture Timing Overview

0:02:52  Four Views and Setup

0:04:00  Passage Scope and Plan

0:06:06  Gathered Together Explained

0:09:31  Rapture Term and Language

0:11:29  Day of the Lord Defined

0:14:28  False Teaching Context

0:18:43  Sources of Deception

0:24:17  Modes of Misinformation

0:28:01  Persecution vs Tribulation

0:30:45  Man of Lawlessness Signs

0:34:06  Temple Question and Timing

0:38:54  Practical Timing Debates

0:43:35  End-Time Markers Recap

0:47:30  Method: Scripture Underpinning

0:51:32  Wrap-Up and Prayer

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 0:00:28

Right, two Thessalonians two. I know I set some homework last week, and I don't need you to tell me what you thought, but it will be more relevant next week when we get into meat and bones of two Thessalonians. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:01:00

So if you remember last week I said there are only four views of the church across time, so far, unless somebody comes up with another view that's not been floated so far, but in essence we're all going to leave this earth at some point in time and be raptured up into heaven if we don't die first, then there will be a millennial reign and the question.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:01:34

that paul's going to address for biggest part of the second chapter thessalonians 2 is the timing of the rapture now we're going to start on that next week the actual timing of it and we're going to have to delve into the scripture to support what i'm saying but i just want you to think i mentioned it last week but i just want you to think about it, if you haven't already for next week because you kind of need to take a view on it... when the timing of the rapture happens and paul's quite explicit when that's going to be and we'll.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:02:04

come on to that later, but there are only four rapture timings really. It's either going to be before.

Jamie 00:02:10

the seven years period begins. 

Jamie shares his views on the timing of the rapture.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:02:21

It's good that you've shared that Jamie and and we'll look at that from next week yeah but in essence there are only four views on rapture timing either there's a seven-year period of tribulation and i say seven years because i know um brian's probablyins currently reading Daniel and i've just finished Daniel but it is quite heavy. In it Daniel taljs about 42 months and times, time and a half a time, 1260 days and all that sort of stuff which all revolves around the seven-year tribulation period.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:02:52

so church in in the main believes that there will be at the end of time a final seven year tribulation period, So the main body of todays church believes we'll be raptured before that seven year starts. Some of the church believe we'll go through the full tribulation, but we'll not suffer the wrath of God because we'll have a mark on us. But nevertheless, we'll go through seven year tribulation, which is basically Calvinism and Presbyterianism. Or some people like myself believe there's a mid-tribulation rapture or Roman Catholic doctrine says what rapture don't exist.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:03:29

So there are only four possible views. So think where you think you sit in that and we'll start looking at that from next week. Because that's what Paul focuses on too. So that was just really to tidy up what we said last week. Think about it because that will become more useful from next week when we start talking about that sort of stuff. For now, we're just going to dive into what I call the introduction to the main part, really. And it's the first three verses.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:04:00

1 to 3a so it's not the whole of 3 and then from 3b which is half way 3 to the end of 13, it's all really around the time in the rapture, the day of the Lord the errors that come into the Thessalonian church and then how Paul puts those errors right and that's going to be the main thrust starting from next week and that will cover several weeks on that and the reason why I want to cover several weeks on that is because when.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:04:30

we get into meat at bones starting next week, there's no way we can determine what Paul's saying without underpinning it with other pieces, of scripture because the church take what Paul says and interpret it in different ways and I'm going to interpret it based on other scripture because I think that's the only way we can do it and if we underpin it with other scripture, it's irrelevant what any of us think, it's what the body of scripture points towards and, And Paul says it quite clearly.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:05:01

And that will come out as we start looking at that from next week onwards. So, for now, the verses we're going to look at this evening, if we can get through them all, are, and I'll read them to you, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1-3a, which is, Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered together to him, i.e. the rapture, we ask you, brothers, and NIV will say sisters there as well,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:05:33

not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit, and the NIV will use the word prophecy there, or a spoken word, or a letter, seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. The day of the Lord is when God's wrath is poured out. Let no one deceive you in any way. So that's what we're going to consider tonight. Which is, An introduction, it's Paul gearing up to get into the main body of teaching,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:06:05

which we'll look at next week, which will be from 3 to 13.

Cecilia 00:06:08

It's very deep.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:06:09

And it's very deep, and it will spider all over the place into the Scripture starting next week. So, for now, we're looking at those three, well, two and a half verses, really. So, there are several things that we need to know about the introduction of chapter 2 that we've just read, and we'll tackle each one of them. And there are four main headings. The first, we need to look at what it means to be gathered together. And for benefit, and really for Jamie and probably for Michael,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:06:41

we've already discussed mostly in 1 Thessalonians that, but I'll just skim over that again. We also need to look at the Day of the Lord. Again, we've already considered that in 1 Thessalonians, but I think you've probably missed it, and Jamie and yourself probably missed it, so we'll skim over that again. Because if you don't understand those two, concepts you're going to be completely lost in second Thessalonians it's all linked yeah thirdly I just want to briefly touch upon the deceit what we're going off in in Thessalonian church.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:07:13

and finally tonight if I can squeeze it all in I want to just briefly discuss um the three three or four principal ways that that deceit were happening in Thessalonia so if we can get through that in 30 minutes to 40 minutes I think we'll have done well right here goes good luck, so first key concepts and we've already discussed these before but like I said there's at least three of us here who weren't there when we did discuss it in one Thessalonians Paul mentions it again.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:07:46

in this these verses I've just read being gathered together and the day of the Lord so it's important just to recap what those are because people often quite often get confused as to the meaning of the word and the meaning of what they are so, verse one opens with the words now concerning the coming of our lord jesus christ so the first question is what coming what what's he talking about and where's he coming from so just to recap what we discussed the last time several months ago jesus is coming in the clouds to rapture the.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:08:21

church which basically means take them off the earth and take them up back up to heaven for the marriage feast of the lamb that's that's it in a in a nutshell and we know that that's true because we read several months ago in 1 thessalonians 4 16 to 17 paul already told us for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command with the voice of an archangel and with the sound of a trumpet of god and the dead in christ will rise first so those who are already passed away like you know your husband if you're a believer and um barbara root were.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:08:57

the ones who were already passed away and the ones who were already passed away were the ones this church my dad right they'll rise, first from the dead and then those who are alive who are left behind so if we're alive that's us at that point in time we'll be caught up together that's the rapture with them with them into the clouds to meet the lord in the air so jesus comes down from heaven he never actually puts a foot on earth he's in the clouds he's midway the dead and the living who are in christ come up to meet him and then he takes us all those believers away from the earth that's the rapture of the church.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:09:30

in a very quick nutshell we spoke about the word caught up because paul mentions in the bible caught up together with them in the clouds and a lot of people go well rapture's never in the bible so why are you talking about the word rapture and we considered that several months ago because the word that we use in english which is caught up in the original greek language that the scriptures were wrote in was our passio and when the greek scriptures were translated into latin.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:10:01

Dominantly, for the vast majority of the church, it was in Latin. The word for caught up is raptura. That's where you get the word rapture from. So when people go, well, rapture's not in the Bible. Well, it is, but that wasn't the original word used. It's a translation of it. So when Paul mentions the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the opening verse 1 of chapter 2, he's referring to the rapture of the church, not the second coming of Jesus Christ to earth.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:10:32

or the start of the millennial reign where God plants his throne down on the earth and reigns for a thousand years before Satan's finally destroyed. He's not talking about that. He's talking about the rapture of the church, believers dead and alive up to heaven before God outpours his wrath. Now, how do we know that that's true? Because the word apazio or raptura or caught up is not actually used. It's used in verse 1. It's gathering, it's gathering together, gathered to him. Well, the him is Jesus Christ. So that's where we're being gathered to. But we know he's talking about the apazio or the rapture because the word he does use is very specific in Greek. It's lost completely in English, which is being gathered together. Right. Which is three words, isn't it? Being gathered together. In Greek, it is only one word. And that word is episinagogy.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:11:28

Now, that's a big, posh word, but it basically means being gathered together. And if you understand how that word's made up in Greek, you can say, yes, it is the same word as rapture. Right. And if you look at that word, the first question I'm going to ask you is, if I say to you the Greek word again and I say it slower, what word in English do you think it sounds like? That's a biblical word. Are you ready? Episinagogy.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:12:02

Yeah, perfect. Sounds like synagogue. Epi-synagogue. And it is related to the word synagogue. And synagogue, if you don't know, was a meeting place of the Jews, where the Jews used to meet to worship God.

Jamie 00:12:18

They still call it that now.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:12:19

They still call it that now, yeah. So, epi-synagogue is actually made up of three separate words. Epi means towards or focusing. So I'm looking at Jamie now. I'm focusing my sight on Jamie. I've got to focus. I'm not looking at you guys. I'm looking at Jamie. That's epi. I'm focusing on something. Syn, from synagogue, means together.

Cecilia 00:12:41

Is it S-Y-N. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:12:42

No, it's in English. Well, it's Greek letters, so it don't look like English. But it would be S-Y-N if you translated it into English, yeah. So, syn, or syn, like S-Y-N, is together. And ago, for agoge, right? is to lead or bring so when the Jews use the word synagogue it means to lead together to bring as an assembly so they're coming together as an assembly so when Paul.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:13:14

uses the word being gathered together is using to be led together with a focus on something that focus being Jesus Christ so that word underpins the gathering together it's the believers being gathered together upwards focused on Lord Jesus Christ which is another way of saying rapture really, he's talking about the rapture of the church.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:13:46

so he opens with we're going to be gathered together with him, focused on Jesus Christ that's a rapture and then later he goes on to say about the day of the Lord, And again, when we start looking at that from next week, with what Paul says, we just have to understand that the day of the Lord is not the rapture. The day of the Lord is not the second coming of Christ either. The day of the Lord is that middle point. So there'll be a rapture, which is the beginning point. There'll be an end point where Christ sets his throne on earth, that's a millennial reign. And then there'll be a midpoint where God outpours his wrath.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:14:27

So it's just another word, if you're not aware, when you hear the day of the Lord, it's when God's going to outpour his wrath on non-believers. The believers won't be around, because we'll be raptured. And God promises in multiple places in scripture, he will not pour his wrath out upon us. So that's, when we see those two words in them first two and a bit sentences, what we open with, Paul's...

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:14:58

I'll read them again. Paul's saying, Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, the rapture, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to get worried about it, not to be shaken by a spirit, a spoken word or a letter, seeming to be from us, because there was some false teaching going off, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come, meaning God outpouring His wrath, don't let anyone deceive you. Because what we're happening basically,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:15:29

and we're going to start looking at it, like I said, next week, people were coming in saying, the rapture's happened, you've missed it, all this trouble you're experiencing is outpouring of God's wrath, you're not saved. And the believers were going, oh my goodness, we thought we were saved. They're panicking, and Paul's saying, don't be shaken in mind, don't panic. That's the main thrust of that sentence, them two sentences really. And that lays open then, that's a nice introduction to what we're going to be looking at from next week,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:16:00

where Paul goes, where Paul's going to tell us what the error was, what they were thinking, and then he corrects them and goes, no, that's wrong. I told you before it's going to be this. And he goes on to say that. So we'll look at that in detail next week, those errors. So it's kind of setting up a nice introduction to what the main thrust of the second chapter is going to be. So that's one and two. Thirdly, well, before I go on to three, I think today.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:16:33

I said there's only four possible ways we can interpret what Paul's going to say from next week when we get on to it. And you can only fall into one of them four camps. And depending on where you fall, when the end does come, because the end will come eventually, when the end does come, the church might find itself in a very similar position to the Thessalonians if they don't interpret correctly. what Paul's going to tell us in 2 Thessalonians.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:17:03

Because if the tribulation comes, and the church doesn't get raptured when the main body of the church thinks it's going to be raptured, which is right at the beginning of the seven-year period, it's going to be like these Thessalonians thinking, my goodness, I thought I would go in, and it's all happening, and I'm stuck here, and they're going to panic, just like these believers were panicking. If the rapture comes in your Roman Catholic church and you've been told there ain't going to be a rapture, they're going to panic, if you're somebody who thinks the rapture's not going to happen.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:17:37

until the right, until the very end, then you might not panic so much, but you might be confused with some of the stuff that does happen around you. So that's why I ask you to think, which one of them four do you fit into? Because when we look at what Paul's going to say from next week onwards, it'll become quite clear there is scripture from multiple places, in old and new times. Testament realistically only underpins one of them four. The main body of the church believes that the church will be raptured, today's church believes that the church will.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:18:12

be raptured right at the beginning of its seven year period, it will experience none other tribulation and it pins all its hope on one verse in chapter four of Revelation and any time I speak to vast majority of people who believe that, which is vast majority at church and I say that's wonderful, I can see why you, respectfully I can understand why you believe that from that one verse, I think you've misinterpreted it but I can see where you're coming from, underpin it with all the scripture and then everybody.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:18:43

just shrugs their shoulders and says well I can't, but if you look at scripture there are at least 20 places where you can underpin it and that's why I don't think that particular view is correct, but we'll come to that starting next week. So, Third, there can be no doubt that false teaching were happening in Thessalonia. And because Paul says it, and I don't need to labour a point, in verse 3, he says, let no one deceive you.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:19:17

So, if he's saying, don't let anybody deceive you, somebody's trying to deceive them, isn't he. 

Cecilia 00:19:23

Yeah.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:19:25

So, it's as simple as that, really. And, by the way, the original teaching that was being corrupted, that people were trying to deceive the believers on, was given to the Thessalonians in person by Paul. So, he knows that it was being corrupted, because he was the man who gave it in the first place. And we know that because in the book of Acts, it tells us, and I think I asked Jamie to have a look at it in Acts 16 and 17, if you wanted to read it.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:19:58

It tells us, that paul timothy and silas were there for just a brief three weeks and while they were there he obviously taught taught the thessalonians and i'm and i know brian is as well we're still amazed that in three short weeks he'd even go into this field but he did you know he went into this the antichrist and the rapture and all this really deep theological stuff in a three brief week period for whatever reason probably to teach teach the rest of the church for ad infinitum.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:20:28

and while he were there he told them about it himself and he also mentions it in one thessalonians, four and five in great detail so we know he told them about the rapture and the coming of the lord and everything else and if you jump ahead to verse five in chapter two don't know if somebody wants to just read the opening of verse five five do you not remember that when i was still with you.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:21:00

full stop so so paul's saying we already know he told them because he's told us in one thessalonians in detail in chapters four and five but paul's reminding them in this particular letter in verse five verse three don't let anyone deceive you verse five don't you remember that when i was with you i told you all this so we know that paul gave the teaching himself we know he told them those things and we know what he told them because he records it in verses four and five or one.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:21:34

thessalonians and we know that that was being corrupted in some way because paul says in verse three right as we opened let no one deceive you yeah so there was erroneous teaching going off and i think that still persists today there's a lot of confusion around there's loads of confusion around end times loads so.

Cecilia 00:22:10

Like Latter-day Saints, they'll only believe so many things from the Bible, because they don't believe half of it.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:22:18

I like them coming so I can argue with them. I know I'm deviating a bit here, but a guy came to sell me a broadband upgrade yesterday, and I invited him in, like a spider into a web, he came in and I gave him a cup of coffee, and then poor lad got two hours of Bible teaching.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:22:49

But you know what, it was the other way around, I had to get rid of him, because I was going, you've got a job to go to, I'll keep you talking all day. And he went, yeah, I've really enjoyed it. I enjoyed talking to you, but yeah, so he's probably lost, he'll probably refute that street again, don't go to number 70.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:23:08

You've got a cross on the door now, you know, black cross.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:23:11

Yeah, black cross, yeah, yeah, EE and BT are going to be avoiding me like Jehovah's Witness. No, I've already got fibre, yeah, but they just wanted to sell me a different package, so I sold him gospel instead. Well done. There you go, he's got a cup of tea as well, thrown in. And finally, fourth, so we've looked at, Paul opened, we're saying, Paul opened, we're saying, now concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, rapture, and our being gathered together to him, rapture,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:23:42

we ask you, brothers and sisters, don't be shaken in mind or spirit by any false teaching that's going around in effect, I'm paraphrasing here, about the effect of the day of the Lord has come, don't let anybody deceive you. So we've looked at. The rapture, the day of the Lord. We've looked at false teaching, what we're going around, and all that sort of stuff. Finally, and fourth, how was that false teaching happening? And again, Paul tells us how that we're going down in verse 2.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:24:16

He tells us it was through three principal methods of deceit. The falsehood was coming through the spirit, which is pneumatos, which is why the New King James, the King James, the ESV, and most translations will translate that spirit. But sometimes that's a little bit misleading. And not misleading, but it's difficult to understand. And the NIV tries to battle and get around that by using a different word. It don't use a direct translation, which is spirit.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:24:47

And that's why when you, Cecilia, or anybody else, I think Dave is it, NIV, it will use the word prophecy, which really intersects. It's not a direct translation, but it's the flavor of what's going off there. So Paul's sort of like saying, you might have some people in your congregation coming up with prophecies that are supposedly from God, or something that my might have prophesied, but it's incorrect, right? So whether it's spirit or prophecy, it gives you the flavour of what he means, but the actual word in translation is pneumatos, which is spirit.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:25:22

We're also told that that fake information or error that were going around the Thessalonian church was coming in false letters from Paul, and word of mouth. So in other words, people were saying to Paul, saying that Paul had said something, and didn't Paul say this? And Paul hadn't said that. So whether some of that was intentional or unintentional, it was probably a little bit above. But I think it was intentional, because Paul says in verse 3, let no one deceive you, which is quite strong, isn't it?

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:26:01

If Brian said something, and he might have gone, well, didn't Sean say this? He might have not been saying something. He might have been misrepresenting what I said unintentionally. But Paul's saying deceive you, which implies that whoever was spreading this false information, either by a prophecy, spirit, or word of mouth or letter, they were doing it intentionally.

Cecilia 00:26:24

Well, it's the same if three people read the same part of the Bible. They'd all have three different ideas of interpretation, won't they. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:26:31

Or four, if it's on rapture.

Cecilia 00:26:35

I forget Catholics on rapture.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:26:37

Yeah, well, that's completely wrong.

Cecilia 00:26:39

People always let me read the Bible when I was a kid.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:26:42

Yeah, you're right. People will interpret things differently. That's not necessarily deception. That's just misunderstanding, isn't it? Or lack of teaching, or lack of reading other scriptures.

Jamie 00:26:51

It's still different. You've got to sort it out yourself.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:26:53

Yes, you've got to sort the wink from the chaff. Yeah, you're correct. But Paul's... Paul's using the word deception, so... Whether it was by spirit-stroke prophecy, whether it was by letter, or whether it was by word of mouth, people in that Thessalonian church were actively, deceptively trying to mislead people, which is quite a scary thing. When you think about it, that's how Satan operates, isn't it? He'll lead you to believe something that sounds relatively true,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:27:23

or relatively like, well, that could be right. But that's how he misleads people, isn't it? That's how Satan's always operated, isn't it? Through deceit and through lies. So, in essence, the opening of chapter 2, Paul tells the Thessalonians, if you've heard something different from what I first told you when I was with you face-to-face by that prophecy letter, twisting my words, then discount it, it's not true, it's not from me. That's a paraphrase, really. Now, just to finish off,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:27:54

because I think I've got an extra five minutes.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:27:58

I've got a question.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:27:59

Go on.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:28:00

I know it's moving ahead. In one way, we're blessed in this country because we don't get persecution in this country like you probably do in other countries. Now, the Thessalonians were experiencing great persecution. Yeah. And Paul had presumably said to them at some stage, look, you know, before the Lord comes, you're going to have persecution, right. 

Jamie 00:28:30

Tribulation.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:28:31

Tribulation, right. So we look in different parts of the world and different parts of the world, in this country, we'll just abandon our country for the minute, in different parts of the world, they could be well excused, like the Thessalonians were thinking.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:28:49

This is it.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:28:51

Because basically, we're getting so much aggravation from everybody, you know, that's round about us. Is this... So the question that I'm coming round to, which I don't expect an answer from today is, how do you differentiate persecution, which is coming to churches in other places, from the tribulation which is spoken about. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:29:20

Right, well I will answer that, but I'll only do it very briefly, because how I want to answer it is by, not what I'm saying, but by other scripture. So that's what we're going to come on to next week. But in a nutshell, that's exactly what we're happening in Thessalonia, that you've just said. So you can understand why they fell for it.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:29:43

I can understand. I mean, if you were in China, or you were in another, none of these foreign countries, and you were a Christian, you... You will be getting hit left, right, and centre.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:29:52

And you're going to be thinking, is that it. 

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:29:55

By the local, by all the authorities that you've come to.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:30:00

To answer your question, and I'm going to use Paul's exact words, you're a Thessalonian, and I'm Paul, and you've just asked me that question. And Paul says to him, in verse 3, part B, second part that we didn't get onto today, for that day, meaning the day of the Lord, God's wrath, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, which is a falling away from the church. You could argue, well, that's already happening. And, he puts a caveat, the and is really important,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:30:33

so it's not just a falling away, so there's got to be a falling away, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. That hasn't happened yet.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:30:44

Well, you're right, I'm not going to, I'm not, this is not me being, I'm not being awkward.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:30:49

No, no, yeah, no.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:30:50

You could look at somebody like Putin, and you say, right, what's he doing around this, around the world? I mean, he's not persecuting. That's a good question. he is totally lawless he has no laws whatsoever.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:31:06

in prophecy, and I know you've read this from what I've wrote before there's what's called a ripple effect and you'll see, prophets will give a prophecy and it can be fulfilled in their lifetime or shortly after like throwing a stone in a pond and you get ripples going out and there may be lots of mini-fulfillments of that prophecy but there'll be an ultimate end-time fulfilment so Adolf Hitler was a type of antichrist Putin is a type.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:31:38

of antichrist you will know the antichrist because there's only one who will come at the end of time because there'll be a falling away from church that's happening I believe there will be a man of lawlessness where you could argue Putin, Adolf Hitler but they don't fill the one... ... criteria that the the man of lawlessness will fill that paul doesn't tell you in second thessalonians but he uses the word specific words man of lawlessness son of destruction.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:32:12

which are both words that are used in book of daniel in olivet discourse and in john's revelation at the end and if you look at those although the man of lawlessness is not it's called the beast in revelation but it's the same person but if you look in daniel and olivet discourse that person and we told in other places in scripture has to appear in the temple which is the jewish temple that's now not there the on the dome of the dome of the rock stands where the temple.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:32:47

used to exist in jesus's time jesus prophesied that it would be destroyed and it was 70 years later by romans it would destroy it and it would, be built, the second temple what were destroyed the first were destroyed by babylonians the second temple was rebuilt the romans destroyed the second in 70 a.d it's historical fact the then islam were born around about 600 a.d they claimed jerusalem as their holy site where abraham was born and was.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:33:22

assumed up into heaven and they built the dome of the rock which stands on the destroyed temple so at the moment the dome of the rock is an islamic structure when the man of uh perdition comes the man of lawlessness the other scriptures that paul doesn't mention but he uses that title like jesus uses son of man and you can look back in other scriptures to determine what that is, that that title it tells you and paul tells us in second letter the man of lawlessness will have to.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:33:56

stand in the temple and declare himself god so, that's why you can say Putin's not the man of lawlessness because one they're into third temple it's not built yet.

Jamie 00:34:06

and.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:34:06

they can't stand where there is one and Putin hasn't declared himself God yet so although he's a well no he don't no, but the man of lawlessness will declare himself God so and we'll start on that from next week in great detail underpinning that with scripture that's a great question but in a nutshell to answer it that cannot have happened in those other countries where Christians undergo persecution because of that.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:34:35

that's a step the and, is a step you know and it's it's not, we've all experienced tribulation we could experience in this country a lot more tribulation than we actually a lot more persecution than we actually experience.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:34:51

oh I think we get very little.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:34:52

there's there's some but I mean if you compare it to you know Asia and the countries in Asia.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:34:59

Africa.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:35:01

yeah i mean they're just getting persecuted yeah you know and i mean there is a there is a physicalness and there is a if you like i know i'm not i'm not please don't interpret this but there's a metaphoricalness as well associated with these so you know when you say well okay it's in the temple it's in the temple i mean if we if we looked at that how long is it going to take to build a temple well it's going to take it's going to take years and years and years because.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:35:35

hey you've got to get rid of the dome on the rock and then build the temple if you take it as a physical temple as a physical temple the fact that there is a religious building where the temple originally stood that's when david bought the the land, you know that was the temple was going to be built on them they bought it from the you know the farmer that have got this land that's that's the land was.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:36:08

there that's is reserved up for the temple of God the fact that it isn't a temple at this point in time but it's still a religious institution you know the you could have another Islamic leader coming up who would effectively say okay I'm standing where the temple used to be and as far as I'm concerned.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:36:29

I'm God now yeah there's no there's no reason there's no reason why there's no reason why the Rome of the dock couldn't be reappropriated because it has been over history over history there's been times in Crusades where that the Dome of the Rock was Islamic and then you know it got invaded by Crusaders and then they put a cross on top and it became Christian so in the history and there's a lot of appropriation of structures throughout history so there's no.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:36:59

guarantee that it's going to be reappropriated but it's going to be, reappropriated but it's going to be reappropriated but it's going to be, a third, temple does not necessarily need to be built they could re-appropriate it could be because.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:37:10

obviously we believe in the falling away from the church, there's been men of lawlessness.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:37:16

I would suggest it won't happen I would suggest it will be a rebuilding but there's nothing in scripture that says it couldn't be a re-appropriation.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:37:26

I'm not wanting to be.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:37:28

I think that's a really I think that's a really interesting question and I'll tell you why it's just popped into my head I've not really thought about it in any great detail until you've just said it but the Jews have got this thing about following the law and when they follow the law they follow it to nth degree and they become a little bit ridiculous with it even Jesus said you're making man-made traditions and you're scrapping, the word of God to put your own man-made traditions in place, so they've got the Jews.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:37:59

and the Jews. I don't think they would. I think they would level it and rebuild a new temple.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:38:19

I think they would.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:38:19

But you're right. There's nothing in Scripture to say it can't allow it.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:38:22

I'm just looking at the timing of this, you know, and saying, okay, I know a thousand years with God is like an evening inside, but at the end of the day, there is so much going on now which is pointing forward to, you know, a time ahead. We are in the situation. There are a lot of signs. The coming of the Lord. And this will be one of the things, you know, that you expect the coming of the Lord to be the rapture. You know, every eye shall see him.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:38:54

Well, we've got the internet now, and every eye can see him through the internet because it's not a problem. that the Lord comes again, it will be captured, it will be around the world in a flash, you know, when the Lord comes again, for those who are still here, and still on the internet. So a lot of the build-up towards the coming of the Lord, and indeed tribulation, is already, and to sort of say, okay, you've got to wait for a temple to be built, you know, which is going to take us 30 years.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:39:26

You see, if you've been pedantic, you could argue a point of, when the temple was built, it probably took decades to get to the size that King Herod eventually built it to, maybe even centuries to get it to the size that King Herod built it to. But if the Antichrist only has to stand in the temple and declare himself God, you could argue that's the holies of holies, not the full temple that takes decades. So it might take a lot shorter time period to build the holy of holies,

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:39:56

and call, wait, the temple. You know what I mean? If you're going to build a temple, you'd start with altar, wouldn't you? And holy of holies. And then he could stand in that, declare himself God, class it as temple, but the whole bigger, wide building with all the finery might not necessarily be built.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:40:16

Well, it might. And I mean, I'm just, you know, sometimes we interpret scripture metaphorically. Sometimes we interpret scripture absolutely physically. And, you know, it is hard sometimes. I mean, you read Daniel. If you read Daniel, and Daniel is, you know, sort of saying, this is going to happen, this is going to happen.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:40:38

Daniel goes all over the place.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:40:39

Oh, he's all over the place. And, you know, you're sort of looking at it and saying, can I make any sense out of that? And I can't really make any sense out of it because it just don't make any sense to me. And yet the thrust of what Daniel is actually trying to say is very clear. But the interesting thing is, and you're... detail that you're looking at in what Daniel has got to say you know, say wow, how on earth is that going to happen, what does that mean you know, what does he mean.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:41:10

it's got to be revealed to us I know that, but it is you know, some of these, I mean I can understand the Thessalonians and I can even understand the Christians in churches which are persecuted today say, well surely this is the beginning of the tribulation you know, because basically we're going through so much pain and so much aggravation it could be the beginning of the tribulation now, you're right in the respect that when you look at that, there is another facet to it, which is not just the.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:41:41

tribulation, but it's this man of.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:41:43

lawlessness, who is used to be.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:41:46

revealed, and it's that's the crucial issue.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:41:49

I think the, Christendom in general these days, certainly the last hundred years gets hung up with the word tribulation, and I think it gets, misunderstood. Tribulation is just a trial that comes to you.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:42:04

You know, you've got this sort of alright, yeah, apostate, tribulation started, mate. You know, that's it now. We've got three and a half.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:42:12

years of this. We gather every week and pray for people who are going through tribulation. So it's happening to us, now.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:42:21

Whether the tribulation had started just on the basis of what was actually going on in the world, the falling away of people, we wouldn't know whether the tribulation had actually started.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:42:31

The only thing that, defines end times tribulation is that man of lawlessness. That's the only thing. And even Jesus mentions that. He goes, read Daniel. Jesus actually goes, read Daniel.

Jamie 00:42:44

Yeah.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:42:46

He says something on the lines of let the reader understand. I'm trying to.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:42:53

confuse you. No, no. This is just, to me, this is a valid discussion.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:43:00

Yeah, so I think we all go through tribulation, and I think the church thinks, if you start saying, as Christians, we'll go through tribulation, it's like, oh no, we'll be raptured and all that, it's God's wrath, we're not going to accept it. No, it's just tribulation. We're all going to go through tribulation. The distinguishing thing is, it's not something that is God-given, necessarily. It's the world, it's Satan, it's the general tribulation we go around. The only difference is, in end times, it will be like there's never been before. It will be tribulation, like Jesus said, like there has never been.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:43:35

And the only reason you'll know that that is the end times, is it'll be so extreme, it'll be stuff like we've never experienced. And there'll eventually be the revealing of the man of perdition, which hasn't happened yet, and you can't argue it has, from any aspect, because you do need somebody to stand either in a... ...reappropriated building, or a rebuilt Jewish temple, and that... It has to be in Jerusalem. It can't be in Moscow. It has to be in Jerusalem and he has to declare himself God.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:44:06

Whether it be in Dormant Rock, a rebuilt or a version of it, it has to be somebody stood in Jerusalem.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:44:13

It is Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a key to it. What's going on now in terms of what's going on between.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:44:22

Israel and Gaza? I personally, and there is no scripture to support this, this is just a personal view. I personally think at some point in the not too distant future, Israel are destroying Hamas, Gaza, Houthis, everybody around them, Lebanon and worlds in uproar. The Bible says that those things will happen. So, you know, people don't read the Bibles.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:44:53

But I do think that Israel have had enough and I think they've taken the gloves off and I think I wouldn't be... and this is not this is me talking not this I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in time they go that temple is ours and I'm leveling dormant rock what, you're going to do about it because they're in that they're in that frame of mind aren't they and if and if they if they decide they're going to level dormant.

Cecilia 00:45:20

rock if they determine they're going to if they determine they're going to level.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:45:27

dormant rock they'll do it and then that is the opening sequence to what they're going to do once I've leveled it they'll want to build a temple back on it and once that temples built you can start looking up to heaven because that's your precursor for this is very very imminent now because if the temples rebuilt the man of lawlessness can't come to there is some form of temple and he appears in it and declares himself God that's how you'll know it we're actually in end times.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:45:59

we're actually in end times in Revelation, tribulation John distinguishes between tribulation and then he uses another word he uses another word called great tribulation so there will be tribulation which is why I believe in a mid tribulation rapture there'll be tribulation and we'll experience it that is not an outpouring of God's wrath the man of law and we'll be here for that and that'll be in seven year last period and then in the middle of that seven and a half year period and we'll come on to that in the next few weeks because Paul does mention it the man of lawlessness will appear in the middle Daniel.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:46:33

supports that and he backs it up at that point in time he declares himself God and whatever's happening in world as bad as it might be gets worse and John calls it the great tribulation Jesus then tells us in Olivet discourse if if God hadn't stepped in and cut this short no one would survive he then raptures his church and then God calls time out I'm.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:47:02

We're not far off that now.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:47:30

If we have really reliable sources, then we can say, Paul says this, and not only does he mean it, but we can underpin it with other scripture that were wrote before Paul wrote Thessalonians 2, and after Paul wrote Thessalonians 2 in Gospels and Revelation. And if we can underpin it with Daniel, Zechariah, Joel, Olivet Discourse, which is three synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and... Revelation, then I think we can be really rock solid in how we're interpreting Paul.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:48:06

And if we interpret him in that way, then I think there'll be little widdle room to sort of like say there can only be one timing for rapture, which is mid-tribulation. But I don't want to force my views on you. I want you to see it for yourself in Scripture.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:48:22

You won't, right. 

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:48:22

I know. But I want people to see it in Scripture so we can underpin it with Scripture.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:48:31

I mean, you've opened up a seam of thought which, you know, we would not have passed. So it's reasonable to pursue that seam of thought. Now, you know, to get, I mean, at the end of the day, God is going to do what God is going to do.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:48:48

Of course he is.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:48:49

So from that point of view, whatever happens, we're in his hands. And he will do what he wants to do and the timing will be up to him. For us... It's just a case of saying, okay, you ought to be aware of this. That's what we're doing.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:49:05

This into salvation matter.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:49:08

It can't change anything. And it isn't going to change our lives in that respect. We're just going to say, well, okay, we can expect this to happen because that's the way that God has forecasted it.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:49:19

And if we get it wrong, it's not going to affect our salvation. It's not a salvation matter. It's just trying to interpret the Bible.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:49:26

We know one thing, that we're going to be raptured at some point. We're going to be taken up to the cross.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:49:29

I once had a conversation with Steve Clegg in prison when we were on his lunch break. And we were talking about timing at rapture. And Steve's a traditional, and I respect his view, a traditional, well, we're not going to see it. And I kind of mentioned these things and he kept on coming back to the same verse but couldn't give me anything else. And my closing thought, my closing words to him was, you interpret it one way, I interpret another. And I respect you and I know you'll respect me. And it's...

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:50:00

into salvation matter we both agreed on that and and then i said but i'll tell you something for nothing steve i hope and pray that you're correct and i'm wrong because because if you're right i will see no tribulation i'll be zipped up to heaven before it all begins and i will be biggest happiest man going up to heaven saying oh thank god steve that you were right and i were wrong because i don't want tribulation however if it happens other way around the.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:50:30

recess the risk is to some christians is they're going to panic and go i've missed it and then some, people's faith might be shaken at that point in time now and i wouldn't want that so that's why i think it's good to sort of like say there are two prompts to this argument it could be right at beginning it could be mid-tribulation but as long as you're aware of both options when it comes you're not going to be taken by, surprise and you're not going to worry about it because you can trust that god knows what he's doing and, I think it's good to talk about it on that level.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:51:03

So we'll start in detail looking at other prophecies next week to underpin what Paul's saying. I hope that's made sense, because this is a really difficult passage to interpret.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:51:13

I'm sorry if I'm throwing it in.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:51:14

No, that's really good.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:51:17

It's a big question to ask at the end of the meeting.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:51:22

I think that's really set us up for next week.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:51:25

Yeah, well, fine. You have primed me, so I'm not your footman.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:51:32

Well, if I were... Well, it's a God-incident thing, because if I were writing that, I'd have primed it that way, and I didn't. Because Paul sets it up how he set it up, and I've kind of expounded on that. However, you've set it up really nicely, because all them things that you've asked, Paul answers next week. And that's what we're going to get into. And we're going to underpin it with the Scripture. And then I'd like to think at the end of it, we can look at... it and go we've got a clearer.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:52:02

idea of what could be happening at end times and I think the key point is underpin it with all the scripture.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:52:08

yeah it takes it without any question if we depend just on one verse and say, there's the old old story a text out of context is a pretext you know that is I know that's the root of English but what it basically means if you pick on one verse and say right I'm going to interpret that and that means this now and I'm not listening to anything else and you take it out of its context then it becomes a falsehood that you're actually following.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:52:37

I think when you're interpreting any scripture you need to underpin it with other scriptures because if you don't.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:52:43

that's what the Bereans did.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:52:44

you're on rocky ground aren't you.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:52:47

that's what the Bereans did in search of scriptures which is why I think it's important.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:52:53

to go to both old and new and we will underpin it with other stuff.

Brian Preston SFGH Church Elder 00:52:58

well good luck with the old, Can we have a good prayer, please? I have to go.

Shaun SFGH Church Leader 00:53:03

Yeah, yeah. No, I've come to an end now in any case. So, Dave, do you want to do the usual?

Speaker 5 00:53:09

Father, we just thank you once again for bringing us together. We thank you, Father, for your word. We just pray that your word will be blessed to you. We just ask now, Father, that you take us to our home safely, and continue your blessings throughout this month. We ask this in the name of our Lord Jesus. Amen.

Article recorded by Shaun Fereday, Prison Chaplain (Sessional) and Leader @SFGH Church